About this Episode:

Joseph is joined by our special guest Kevin Lee, Co-Founder and Executive Chairman of Didit a leading digital marketing and technology firm. Since 1996, Didit has been helping clients win, across industries, from the Fortune 500 to startups. 

In this episode,  Joseph and Kevin discuss the SEO perspective of branded content, and how to best use SEO when creating branded content, to increase the success of the content. That there needs to be a balance between SEO and branded content to create incredibly successful wise content.

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Joseph explains how Benjamin Franklin was one of the first people who used content creation through the Poor Richard’s Almanac in the 18th century and introduces his guest Kevin Lee, who works on technological solutions to marketing problems. Kevin explains his passion for advertising and his journey to his current position today. Joseph and Kevin discuss Kevin’s experience with coding and how even though he is not a classically trained computer scientist, he is literate enough in code to lead a team of coders through their projects. Kevin also explains his experience in pushing the boundaries of the current technology, and how being a geek is extremely helpful in pushing the boundaries of technology. Joseph and Kevin discuss search engine optimization (SEO) marketing and the jump from straight SEO to content-based SEO. Kevin explains through his experience content is not a one-use product for digital marketing, but rather something that should be continually repurposed. Joseph and Kevin discuss how currently, storytelling is another necessity in content creation, and to create successful wise content, there needs to be a balance between SEO and storytelling.


Joseph and Kevin discuss Kevin’s belief that branded content follows the soap opera model, and that branded content comes in many flavors. Kevin explains how pre-rolled branded content is also found in public radio and public television, allowing the audience to learn quickly who the sponsor is. Kevin also explains that branded content is becoming incredibly popular for digital marketing because of ad blockers online, and branded content through the use of content creators are unskippable advertisements. Joseph and Kevin discuss how services and brands that are typically boring to the general population, using the example of insurance, by putting a focus on storytelling through advertisements the audience is more engaged. The two also discuss the SEO perspective of branded content, and how to best use SEO when creating branded content, to increase the success of the content. That there needs to be a balance between SEO and branded content to create incredibly successful wise content.


Joseph and Kevin discuss how to best use SEO for digital marketing with the launch of a new business, even though it might have some drawbacks without experience, businesses are more successful after making use of digital marketing through SEO. Kevin explains the relationship between PR and SEO, and a brand needs to be careful with who they associate themselves with, so that they are confident with the image of their brand, as there is such a thing as bad PR. Joseph and Kevin discuss how most brands undervalue SEO, and how often they see failure because of the lack of investment they put in SEO. Kevin explains how if a business doesn’t match their competitors in their investments in SEO, their competitors will catch up and pass them. The two discuss the importance of a holistic view of content creation, and with this mindset towards content creation, one can successfully create wise content.


Joseph and Kevin discuss schema’s future in 2021 and whether or not schema will be the tiebreaker for many of the brands that make use of SEO for digital marketing through search engine ranking. Kevin discusses cause marketing content, for the use of donations to non-profit organizations. That if he was able to get the right domains, and be able to get celebrities and other prominent figures to donate content he would be able to donate ad revenue to non-profits. Joseph and Kevin discuss the current non-profit project Goodbuzz.org, implementing this model he devised through content co-creation.


00:01:20.850 –> 00:01:24.690 Joseph McElroy: All right, hi Hello thanks for joining us on this week’s episode of

00:01:26.010 –> 00:01:33.450 Joseph McElroy: Wise Content Created Wealth you’ve heard that content is king well why is content rules, the world this podcast.

00:01:33.840 –> 00:01:42.570 Joseph McElroy: is about understanding how you can make and utilize wise content to per group improves your company’s bottom line and your personal financial success.

00:01:43.170 –> 00:01:52.170 Joseph McElroy: I’m Joseph Franklin McElroy and I’m a marketing technology expert who’s built a multimillion-dollar company I’m also an award-winning content producer.

00:01:52.980 –> 00:02:02.310 Joseph McElroy: Be sure to go to my website for this podcast wisecontentcreateswealth.com to sign up for my newsletter and to get access to resources to help you produce wise content.

00:02:03.510 –> 00:02:18.900 Joseph McElroy: My company is Galileo tech media a leader in seo and inbound marketing we’re specialists and wise content is content that incorporates semantic science behavioral science Ai and data to make marketing content that is smart and that performs better.

00:02:20.070 –> 00:02:24.060 Joseph McElroy: on our agenda, today is content seo and technology.

00:02:25.560 –> 00:02:40.800 Joseph McElroy: Did you know that Benjamin Franklin was probably considered one of the first people to use content marketing he actually published the yearly poor Richard’s almanac with the goal of promoting his business his printing business, and that was in 1732.

00:02:41.910 –> 00:02:56.580 Joseph McElroy: In 1801 the bookstore library gallons and 90 employed creative content strategies to grow his business, including opening a reading room and a printing a newspaper that feature articles from influential authors and books.

00:02:57.150 –> 00:03:16.230 Joseph McElroy: So it’s been going on a long time lots of stellar entrepreneurs and leaders of our country have done it now I’m going to introduce you to a leader today his name is Kevin Lee he’s the executive chairman and co-founder and a marketing mad scientist was the company did it.

00:03:18.210 –> 00:03:27.150 Joseph McElroy: It co-founded a company in 1996 and he’s also been the Chair of the sent over to the search engine marketing professionals organization and.

00:03:27.870 –> 00:03:38.280 Joseph McElroy: And sort of other organizations with that that he’s a he invents technology solutions to marketing problems for clients and he builds lots of platforms.

00:03:39.630 –> 00:03:55.320 Joseph McElroy: So he’s always innovating and he’s over is the author of over 750 columns and marketing and published across many publications he’s a prolific speaker at over 550 conferences and events over 24 years and he is.

00:03:55.770 –> 00:04:04.590 Joseph McElroy: comes from a pretty pedigree of with an MBA at Yale and I think in multiple he lives up in Scarsdale are you doing Kevin.

00:04:04.770 –> 00:04:07.500 Kevin Lee: Very well, thanks, Joseph for having me on the show.

00:04:07.860 –> 00:04:13.860 Joseph McElroy: I’m glad you could make it we’ve known each other for a little while it’s good to have an opportunity to collaborate on something.

00:04:15.090 –> 00:04:31.050 Joseph McElroy: So your background coming into the workforce, was in business and economics so then an advanced degree from Yale, and then you went immediately into advertising and sales for McCann erickson so how did you evolve to become a marketing technology leader today.

00:04:32.070 –> 00:04:41.220 Kevin Lee: Well, you know when I have a passion for advertising and marketing, and when I was at McCann Erickson I was probably one of the more geeky account executives there.

00:04:41.730 –> 00:04:55.470 Kevin Lee: And so anytime anything had to do with technology I’d end up having to do it for them, so this sort of intersection of technology and advertising at the time was really not very much of an intersection in 1999 1992.

00:04:56.790 –> 00:05:04.590 Kevin Lee: And around 1994 That was when digital really first started to take off with AOL and compu serve and so.

00:05:05.070 –> 00:05:11.790 Kevin Lee: I had this sort of Epiphany than that, like it was really going to be digital advertising that I liked the most and.

00:05:12.390 –> 00:05:22.650 Kevin Lee: So I end up joining up with somebody to start an agency in 94 and did it was a spin off of that in 1996 with the seo monitoring tool, called the did it detective.

00:05:23.100 –> 00:05:37.260 Kevin Lee: And after that we’ve invented a whole bunch of different technology and gone through a lot of transformations over the years, acquired 11 other companies, mostly small ones, and so yeah that’s that’s that’s who I am and what I do.

00:05:38.580 –> 00:05:42.150 Joseph McElroy: So was dietetic did it detective your first foray into technology.

00:05:42.690 –> 00:05:59.580 Kevin Lee: It was you know that the the detective was was designed to let you know whether your URL was live in about a dozen search engines so altavista info seek lycos you know, this is all pre Google and.

00:06:00.270 –> 00:06:07.560 Kevin Lee: So people could you know would manually monitor that and there was a competitor called submitted and.

00:06:08.580 –> 00:06:16.830 Kevin Lee: So you know my current business partner did it asked me in a meeting hey you know, like what happens.

00:06:17.280 –> 00:06:24.660 Kevin Lee: If if you’re you fall out of the search engines, you know how do you know that you’re still there, because this submitted search engine submission service.

00:06:25.020 –> 00:06:33.750 Kevin Lee: It just go ahead and put you in there, then you have no idea if it worked or not he said, would it be possible to monitor it and provide a monitoring service, not just a submission service.

00:06:34.350 –> 00:06:39.600 Kevin Lee: And I think yeah we can we can complete, we can totally build that so he said well why don’t we do that as a joint venture.

00:06:39.930 –> 00:06:51.030 Kevin Lee: And so we got into that business and built the data detect it, and that was our first That was our first foray into did it as a spin off of this this other agency that I had been running at the time.

00:06:51.360 –> 00:06:54.360 Joseph McElroy: Did you roll up your sleeves and get involved, or do you did you have a team.

00:06:55.110 –> 00:07:06.240 Kevin Lee: Oh, I mean i’m not a coder i’m just I can i’m just dangerous around code I tend to break it if I touch it i’m not a classically trained computer scientist, but I speak.

00:07:06.570 –> 00:07:14.340 Kevin Lee: code well enough that I can guide a product team right, so I can guide the coders and sometimes I can guide them away from making the wrong mistakes.

00:07:14.940 –> 00:07:31.740 Kevin Lee: You know around database structures and types of databases and you know ways of utilizing html better so you know, given the fact that we were sort of it we went from being an seo technology to being an seo services company, you know it’s good to be geeky i’ll put it that way.

00:07:32.250 –> 00:07:40.950 Joseph McElroy: It did understanding the language of technology help you be a better average Nigerian market.

00:07:42.600 –> 00:07:44.550 Kevin Lee: I think it did because.

00:07:45.930 –> 00:07:59.430 Kevin Lee: The the vehicle that that delivered the content was tech right and this this came from you know, one of our early projects, which is a floppy disk based promo.

00:08:00.750 –> 00:08:04.980 Kevin Lee: Presentation for the movie disclosure with demi Moore and Michael Douglas.

00:08:06.150 –> 00:08:15.900 Kevin Lee: You know this, this is like way back right so understanding the technology and where the limits of the technology were and yet figuring out how to stretch that technology to its limit.

00:08:16.290 –> 00:08:23.910 Kevin Lee: And do the coolest thing you could do with it right, that was the key I mean we got the Budweiser frog screensaver outsource to us.

00:08:24.180 –> 00:08:37.710 Kevin Lee: We built the screensaver that when you’re it had audio in it, so when your screensaver would kick in on a windows machine around the time of the Budweiser frogs your computer would start to say ribbit ribbit you know.

00:08:38.520 –> 00:08:53.430 Kevin Lee: And the you know that kind of stuff you know sort of pushing the envelope a little bit and taking the taking what Maybe other agencies or come up with, because you know search marketing agencies typically were at the agency of record so you’d end up getting brought in.

00:08:55.020 –> 00:09:05.400 Kevin Lee: To do all sorts of things and take take existing ideas and layer onto them so yeah absolutely you got it yeah you have to be a geek now maybe less so, but certainly back then you have to be pretty.

00:09:05.460 –> 00:09:14.040 Joseph McElroy: Oh, that but I think I think you know I came I came out of the technology, I was a coder and you know I had to learn the language of marketing.

00:09:15.150 –> 00:09:28.020 Joseph McElroy: which was a different path yeah but definitely my knowledge of technology helped me a lot in my endeavors so I can see where that was probably important part of worried why you are the day.

00:09:29.040 –> 00:09:30.870 Joseph McElroy: Making that important transition, I think.

00:09:32.340 –> 00:09:39.450 Joseph McElroy: So now, you were also known as a content marketing guru so I imagine that came out of your seo.

00:09:40.410 –> 00:09:49.470 Kevin Lee: yeah to a great extent is a combination of things, obviously, as you mentioned content is has been king and wise Kent that content is even better.

00:09:50.820 –> 00:10:06.900 Kevin Lee: And so it’s sort of table stakes right for seo is great content bad content can actually get you in trouble from an seo perspective, it certainly didn’t work very well for demand media when they became a content farm and it came back, and you know, Google didn’t like that very much.

00:10:08.160 –> 00:10:20.550 Kevin Lee: But you know great content is is absolutely critical you know where we sort of made that jump from just straight seo into being very content centric was was really this continued momentum.

00:10:21.090 –> 00:10:25.440 Kevin Lee: Around social media these continued momentum around.

00:10:26.400 –> 00:10:37.890 Kevin Lee: owning your own content and sort of having not just earned media but owned media right, whether that was on blogs or on your sites or on it within your social media channels you needed to be graded content.

00:10:38.400 –> 00:10:49.290 Kevin Lee: And, as a result, you know you also need to be great at storytelling right and being a geek and being a marketer isn’t good enough and that’s why we bought three PR agencies right PR agencies integrated storytelling.

00:10:49.710 –> 00:10:59.520 Kevin Lee: Right now, the old PR agencies we bought they weren’t good at digital distribution of storytelling assets, but they knew how to storytelling knew how to be strategic.

00:11:00.150 –> 00:11:16.890 Kevin Lee: And we have to also change their Frame of Reference right The other thing that that PR agency still think about PR hits as a particular slice of time right seos don’t think about it that way seos think about it like this might be a permanent link to my domain.

00:11:17.130 –> 00:11:18.330 Kevin Lee: it’s going to be there forever.

00:11:18.360 –> 00:11:29.790 Kevin Lee: that’s super valuable or they think about it from the perspective of hey if that place that we got that PR hit has good domain authority to use a word that nobody likes to use anymore, but.

00:11:30.540 –> 00:11:37.830 Kevin Lee: They might they might outrank that that same piece of content on our blog right, so we may end up with a permanent fixture.

00:11:38.190 –> 00:11:47.160 Kevin Lee: In a Google search or being served as a result of getting getting a PR hit right which is much more of a long term philosophy than straight PR.

00:11:47.460 –> 00:11:52.500 Kevin Lee: So, but by sort of weaving all that stuff together we’re like okay content is it’s not.

00:11:52.950 –> 00:11:58.320 Kevin Lee: Created once use it once and congratulate yourself and walk away it’s really much more.

00:11:58.590 –> 00:12:04.110 Kevin Lee: How do we continue to repurpose this content, how does it sit sit within social, how does it sit within.

00:12:04.350 –> 00:12:14.520 Kevin Lee: within your own domain, how does it sit on other domains, you know where should content live, should it live exclusively on your domain, should it be syndicated out how should you co create content.

00:12:14.880 –> 00:12:25.260 Kevin Lee: Who should you co create the content with you know when do you decide this content sucks and you would actually prefer for it to disappear right all that stuff added a completely new layer to our business.

00:12:26.490 –> 00:12:36.930 Joseph McElroy: I mean, I think that’s important I love your emphasis on storytelling you know, one of the things I did is you know, I have a different sort of model and I needed lots of really good travel writers.

00:12:38.850 –> 00:12:43.680 Joseph McElroy: I knew a lot of seo writers, but they were particularly good at writing stories about travel.

00:12:43.950 –> 00:12:50.460 Joseph McElroy: And even some of the travel writers real creative writing stories, I actually wouldn’t found Hollywood screenwriters and needed extra work and train them.

00:12:50.730 –> 00:12:59.880 Joseph McElroy: on how to do seo and that really was a great success, because they could they could tell the story right and everybody really want a good story so it’s a.

00:13:00.300 –> 00:13:09.240 Joseph McElroy: it’s a it’s I think that wise content it’s important to to embed that story writing from the beginning of what you’re going to tell so.

00:13:10.380 –> 00:13:11.370 Joseph McElroy: I think it was a good point.

00:13:11.610 –> 00:13:13.500 Kevin Lee: yeah one other point i’d add to.

00:13:13.500 –> 00:13:20.010 Kevin Lee: That is is storytelling content and journalistic content or inverted to each other.

00:13:20.970 –> 00:13:30.210 Kevin Lee: Because journalistic content uses the inverted pyramid style, which is to put the punch line in the headline put the make the first sentence, the most important.

00:13:30.510 –> 00:13:39.240 Kevin Lee: And then, make it increasingly less important, as you get down with storytelling you don’t want to have the headline be the Butler kills billionaire.

00:13:39.420 –> 00:13:41.850 Kevin Lee: Right, because then nobody’s going to read beyond the headline.

00:13:42.180 –> 00:13:53.940 Kevin Lee: Whereas when you’re storytelling the emphasis comes later on in the in the story right, and so you need a mix from an seo and content perspective of inverted pyramid journalistic style content.

00:13:54.300 –> 00:13:59.730 Kevin Lee: And storytelling content and sometimes you have to find that balance between the two, where you have a hook.

00:14:00.090 –> 00:14:12.780 Kevin Lee: In the beginning and then that hook was like really strong but then you have sort of the additional information that sort of supports the educational information in the article in the piece it’s the same thing with with with the video right.

00:14:13.710 –> 00:14:26.490 Kevin Lee: screenwriters to your point, which is that’s that’s brilliant right screenwriters understand that the hero’s journey right the hero’s journey you don’t see that used an seo very often right, you see, in every screenplay right.

00:14:27.360 –> 00:14:31.110 Joseph McElroy: You know I tried to do a little bit of the hero’s journey in this podcast when talking to people.

00:14:32.520 –> 00:14:36.630 Joseph McElroy: So anyway we’re gonna go to a break and come back about more about your hero’s journey alright.

00:14:37.140 –> 00:14:37.830 Kevin Lee: sounds good.

00:14:40.470 –> 00:14:45.060 Kevin Lee: Radio nyc www talk radio dot nyc.

00:16:49.980 –> 00:16:57.540 Joseph McElroy: hi this is Joseph mcilroy back with wise content creates wealth and my guest Kevin Lee so Kevin.

00:16:58.230 –> 00:17:08.760 Joseph McElroy: i’m going back in your past a little bit I was researching some stuff we wrote on all those articles online, I found one or 2018 Europe from our search engine land about branded content.

00:17:09.300 –> 00:17:26.040 Joseph McElroy: Right, which is also advertorial content or if it was in print or infomercials and it was in broadcast what I thought was interesting you compared branded content strategies to the soap opera model days past What did you mean by that and does that still apply today.

00:17:27.000 –> 00:17:29.100 Kevin Lee: It does still apply right.

00:17:30.150 –> 00:17:37.710 Kevin Lee: You know the the the reason branded content is hotter than ever now is because ad blockers right.

00:17:38.670 –> 00:17:48.030 Kevin Lee: And the branded content comes a lot of different flavors right sometimes the branded content that is being created as a result of requests from an agency or brand.

00:17:48.570 –> 00:17:55.650 Kevin Lee: It actually mentions the brand right, and so, in that case it’s it’s one flavor of branded content.

00:17:56.040 –> 00:18:09.360 Kevin Lee: But an entirely different set of branded content is really sort of the the understanding that this brand has underwritten a particular piece of content, even though the content doesn’t necessarily talk about the brand.

00:18:09.750 –> 00:18:26.160 Kevin Lee: Right so soap operas you you knew that they were paying for the soap bar for for you to be able to watch that soap opera was either tied or a Unilever product that’s old soap operas because soap was allowing you to be entertained by those actors.

00:18:27.270 –> 00:18:30.600 Kevin Lee: And so they became it became sort of part of the entire.

00:18:31.680 –> 00:18:47.430 Kevin Lee: The entire framework of that that model right was this idea that was underwritten by somebody and, to be honest, public radio and and public TV to a great extent use a similar model right is it sort of as a pre roll to your public radio.

00:18:48.420 –> 00:18:58.920 Kevin Lee: podcast or pre roll to your Nova on what in New York would be channel 13 right you knew that the you know up with Exxon Mobil was the sponsor right so.

00:18:59.160 –> 00:19:04.890 Kevin Lee: that’s not straight advertising that’s sort of a branded content and and in a digital world branded content.

00:19:05.160 –> 00:19:14.880 Kevin Lee: Is not typically skippable and the level of that you integrate the branded content, it the brand into the content for branded content is a total continuum.

00:19:15.210 –> 00:19:24.780 Kevin Lee: Right, because people don’t really want to learn about your product necessarily you may not have an exciting product or you may not have an exciting service but by dovetailing yourself.

00:19:25.740 –> 00:19:41.700 Kevin Lee: into the content and making people understand that you know you supported that content that’s came in the entire influencer ecosystem runs on this right it’s there’s not that much difference between the soap operas and what cutie pie does right.

00:19:41.910 –> 00:19:49.500 Kevin Lee: yeah basically integrating that brand into the content, maybe he mentions what the brand does maybe he doesn’t but you certainly know that.

00:19:49.860 –> 00:20:02.190 Kevin Lee: That your favorite star whoever that may be, or that that influencer is being supported by by that content, so you might think you know oh soap operas that’s like old news no they’re back.

00:20:04.710 –> 00:20:25.770 Joseph McElroy: Well, what what tips or tools would you do you think help a brand or research couple grand to determine to what level they should integrate their brand into into some content, you know how does it say the relatively new brand get into this and understand what they should shouldn’t do.

00:20:26.910 –> 00:20:35.610 Kevin Lee: yeah it really comes down to the marketing strategy right, as well as sort of what what your product is.

00:20:37.200 –> 00:20:46.110 Kevin Lee: Some categories it’s tough to create content and integrate your brand into the content, because the the the.

00:20:47.250 –> 00:20:55.110 Kevin Lee: The topic or the service if you were to look at it independently, it might seem sort of boring and some brands have done a really great job with that.

00:20:55.410 –> 00:21:03.030 Kevin Lee: And sometimes one brand doing a great job in a category allows everybody else to in a category to become more creative.

00:21:03.330 –> 00:21:16.050 Kevin Lee: Right, so he is geico as an example right insurance is really not an exciting topic right it’s far as like just insurance in a box right it’s insurance right auto insurance home insurance whatever.

00:21:16.350 –> 00:21:20.520 Kevin Lee: So they have first embraced this idea, like we can tell stories and be funny.

00:21:21.000 –> 00:21:27.210 Kevin Lee: When we’re trying to get our brand across and then we have other ads which are pure direct response listen you say 15% whatever.

00:21:27.510 –> 00:21:40.470 Kevin Lee: But they don’t exclusively use the gecko they use the cavemen they did these Halloween skits that were different, and like the insurance just sort of goes along for the ride right, and so, if you have a somewhat boring.

00:21:41.580 –> 00:21:51.210 Kevin Lee: type of product or service you just have to let your your service and your brand go along, for the ride, because no one wants to hear about insurance right so.

00:21:51.690 –> 00:21:53.640 Joseph McElroy: mayhem do come into existence.

00:21:53.730 –> 00:21:58.110 Kevin Lee: Right, but the thing is gets crazy in that in the in the auto insurance business right.

00:21:58.560 –> 00:22:06.300 Kevin Lee: progressive and and liberty mutual and a bunch of other brands have taken their creative up several notches.

00:22:06.600 –> 00:22:14.160 Kevin Lee: Yes, they have to compete against the very creative leader right, so if you’re if the category and is not that exciting, you have to figure out how to story tell.

00:22:14.490 –> 00:22:20.520 Kevin Lee: within your category and let the story come along for the ride if you’re in a really exciting category.

00:22:21.270 –> 00:22:27.060 Kevin Lee: You have you can have a very different strategy, and you can integrate you can integrate into brand placements.

00:22:27.450 –> 00:22:36.000 Kevin Lee: You can even do it in the way that is done in movies and TV stations, which is sort of TV shows, which is brand placement within a movie right.

00:22:36.900 –> 00:22:48.240 Kevin Lee: m&ms passed on being an et so reese’s pieces got that slot right now that that’s you know, a part of that movie that was sort of unforgettable right like.

00:22:48.540 –> 00:22:54.030 Kevin Lee: He was eating reese’s pieces, it could have been eating m&ms but no m&m said man I.

00:22:54.600 –> 00:23:04.920 Kevin Lee: Why don’t really want to be here right now reese I wrote reese’s pieces paid her she’s I think Andre says, I don’t know what they paid to be in that movie, but I think they got their money’s worth right so.

00:23:05.790 –> 00:23:19.740 Kevin Lee: Going back to sort of you know who is my audience What are they doing what content will they engage in how can I sort of have the have the story be authentic and me just be there and and be.

00:23:21.090 –> 00:23:27.810 Kevin Lee: In the front and Center enough to be noticed, but not front and Center enough to be annoying right finding that balance.

00:23:28.170 –> 00:23:37.380 Kevin Lee: Where you know you’re not annoying as a brand that’s that’s when people start to tune you out that’s why people skip commercials in TV and that’s why people have ad blockers on.

00:23:37.710 –> 00:23:45.420 Kevin Lee: turned in their browser right so branded content is a way of sort of breaking through that if, once there’s a taking advantage of it.

00:23:46.290 –> 00:24:01.170 Kevin Lee: You know, when we launch good buzz under giving forward will have branded content once you get big enough where they’ll just sponsor entire channels, just like the soap operas did so it’s it’s a it’s a fun way to allow your brand to be relevant.

00:24:02.190 –> 00:24:05.910 Kevin Lee: And it’s better than sort of cut and dried advertising in many cases.

00:24:06.480 –> 00:24:16.560 Joseph McElroy: You know I met with a TV network CMO once and found out that they actually planned months in advance, where they’re doing something a show or something that just to see what.

00:24:17.070 –> 00:24:23.100 Joseph McElroy: You know phrases might come out of that and they actually get optimized for that and also by.

00:24:23.490 –> 00:24:36.000 Joseph McElroy: You know plan ahead to buy campaigns based upon those phrases, do you think that you know, integrating seo into branded content Kim campaigns is prevalent or a good idea, or what we know we’ve seen that before.

00:24:36.570 –> 00:24:42.930 Kevin Lee: yeah I see more of the missed opportunities against that, then I have the successful execution of that.

00:24:43.800 –> 00:24:52.950 Kevin Lee: I think you have to sort of i’ve seen it also tried in the cases of using PPC paid right, and in some cases, you sort of have to scratch your head.

00:24:53.400 –> 00:24:58.710 Kevin Lee: and say, well, why would they have done that call to action I I think I think it was a.

00:24:59.370 –> 00:25:15.360 Kevin Lee: vitamin A Toyota ad or one of the major ads in a super bowl spot told you to go to Google and look them up right and, of course, you know they had their own advertising placed there, so they just cost themselves a whole bunch of money was it’s still worth it, I don’t know but.

00:25:16.980 –> 00:25:26.820 Kevin Lee: You know that the, the question is whether you’ll reach critical mass on those keywords, to the point where it makes sense to invest the seo effort into it right because.

00:25:27.060 –> 00:25:33.570 Kevin Lee: you’re going to have a lag time in the case of seo So if you sort of know something’s coming out from a brand new content perspective, where you have a.

00:25:33.990 –> 00:25:41.730 Kevin Lee: placement like reese’s pieces in a movie and you know, six months ahead of time, you may be able to think about that from an seo perspective.

00:25:42.090 –> 00:25:51.990 Kevin Lee: But not just from a straight seo perspective thinking about it from a sort of PR multiplier effect like can you make, make sure that you know you’re being interviewed about that placement.

00:25:52.800 –> 00:26:08.670 Kevin Lee: You know, when that play some hits so that you’ll then have the the the REACH, the placement power of those brands that interview you, especially if it’s like the New York Times Wall Street Journal USA today, etc, or you know major broadcast like CNN or fox news.

00:26:09.600 –> 00:26:15.240 Joseph McElroy: yeah I know I used to do I work with direct response you know the late night TV commercial companies.

00:26:15.750 –> 00:26:21.930 Joseph McElroy: And one of the one of the reasons they started doing seo is they were finding their leads that call the volume down.

00:26:22.260 –> 00:26:26.430 Joseph McElroy: Right, the call centers that believes were coming their culture, since it was dropping dramatically.

00:26:26.820 –> 00:26:34.920 Joseph McElroy: And the reason was is because people remembering, not the telephone number from the commercial anymore they’re remembering what the commercial commercial was about.

00:26:35.490 –> 00:26:44.100 Joseph McElroy: And they would go search that and competitors would optimize for the content of their commercials somebody that was doing a $17 million a year media by.

00:26:44.340 –> 00:26:55.200 Joseph McElroy: dramatically lost their leads and another competitor built their whole business and became a huge competitor just by stealing their online leads yeah so.

00:26:55.440 –> 00:27:01.560 Kevin Lee: yeah in those cases we don’t we’ve also had infomercials short form infomercial long from him for infomercial clients.

00:27:01.980 –> 00:27:06.600 Kevin Lee: You The other thing that happens is you end up having to double pay, because the affiliates do the seo.

00:27:07.020 –> 00:27:17.430 Kevin Lee: Right, so you could lose it to a competitor you could end up you know double paying in the case of the affiliates who are really good at seo and and essentially think of themselves as publishers as well, so.

00:27:17.730 –> 00:27:18.960 Kevin Lee: that’s where it gets complicated.

00:27:19.110 –> 00:27:24.540 Joseph McElroy: Is no they never prevents you from buying keywords and doing certain things for the brand right.

00:27:25.920 –> 00:27:34.560 Kevin Lee: yeah they taught it for them to control seo obviously they can stop you from bidding on keywords but often affiliates would would end up out ranking.

00:27:35.850 –> 00:27:38.760 Kevin Lee: ranking the original brand in some keyword searches.

00:27:39.060 –> 00:27:49.380 Joseph McElroy: yeah do influencers have to are you do when you’re doing branded content, you get the present influencers are doing certain things that might affect seo or paid search.

00:27:49.950 –> 00:27:59.670 Kevin Lee: um we haven’t gotten into any issues with that, yet we typically won’t let them buy paid search against things just because, especially brand related keywords.

00:28:00.780 –> 00:28:09.540 Kevin Lee: because some of the influencer campaigns are semi performance right so so they may it may not be a flat fee, it may be a combination of a flat fee, plus a.

00:28:09.900 –> 00:28:19.770 Kevin Lee: An affiliate type deal or performance type deal on the back end, so in that case there are more restrictions right if it’s if it’s a performance deal, not just a flat fee okay cool.

00:28:20.010 –> 00:28:25.950 Joseph McElroy: Well, when we come back we’ll talk a little bit more about the industry and look forward that sounds good.

00:28:27.870 –> 00:28:33.780 Listening to radio and my see unless educate and.

00:30:47.400 –> 00:31:02.070 Joseph McElroy: hello, is just a McElroy and back with the wise content creates well podcast with my guests Kevin Lee so Kevin when we were talking before the show you mentioned that you know some CMOs and marketing VP.

00:31:02.580 –> 00:31:15.120 Joseph McElroy: Under invest in earned media and seo because our wise is very challenging to predict So how should the CMOs think about earned media investors investments invest at the optimal level.

00:31:16.860 –> 00:31:24.630 Kevin Lee: Well, you know I think the the optimal level is going to depend on sort of where they are in their their journey as a brand and as a domain.

00:31:26.070 –> 00:31:36.030 Kevin Lee: And the attain ability of the results that they’re trying to accomplish you know, there are have been businesses which is sort of still succeeded in spite of a lack of investment in our media.

00:31:36.510 –> 00:31:44.640 Kevin Lee: or seo but they end up being beholden to Google and Facebook and bang for the rest of their lives, their business lives right so.

00:31:45.150 –> 00:31:53.430 Kevin Lee: The the you know the success within our media is is a is an extension of sort of this PR and visibility play.

00:31:54.150 –> 00:32:04.170 Kevin Lee: So you have to sort of figure about what the what’s the choreography of your your business launch and when you invest in in earned media when you invest in seo.

00:32:05.130 –> 00:32:16.770 Kevin Lee: How would you put kpis in place that would allow you to sort of know whether or not you’re making you’re getting momentum, whether or not you expect to see return on your investment eventually or not, but.

00:32:17.580 –> 00:32:26.040 Kevin Lee: You know, like public relations right there are no guarantees no guarantees in seo if somebody gives you a guarantee in seo they’re probably full of it so.

00:32:27.060 –> 00:32:36.270 Kevin Lee: But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it right same thing with PR you know every every sort of real brand has a PR agency, they may be under investing in the PR agency.

00:32:36.600 –> 00:32:53.910 Kevin Lee: That Agency may have a $5,000 month retainer when it should be 15 so that they can do more, so that they could expand that breath and do more outreach to journalists of different types or maybe get into content creation and creation, but it’s it’s a way of providing.

00:32:54.990 –> 00:33:08.160 Kevin Lee: Social proof right a lot of the stuff that comes out of our own media is sort of social proof okay well you know this was on this show where this was in this newspaper or this was covered by CNN you know I guess it’s legit now, it could still not be legit.

00:33:09.300 –> 00:33:25.620 Kevin Lee: Just because they got the god coverage, you know that doesn’t doesn’t mean it’s legit and it used to be there was afraid that the saying that there’s no such thing as bad PR now I would probably meant that, like, I guess, there is such a thing as bad PR just ask the my pillow guy.

00:33:25.860 –> 00:33:26.220 yeah.

00:33:27.630 –> 00:33:35.460 Kevin Lee: You know that there’s there is such a thing as bad PR but, for the most part, if you can, if you can associate yourself with good.

00:33:36.180 –> 00:33:42.780 Kevin Lee: Good publishing brands, you know good broadcast brands good bloggers good influencers you know that’s going to sort of.

00:33:43.110 –> 00:33:51.360 Kevin Lee: float your reputation higher as an organization and and deal flow your domains reputation higher as well right so coming up with a.

00:33:52.170 –> 00:33:58.890 Kevin Lee: set of kpis which are leading indicators to the eventual rank that you’re trying to achieve that that I think is key.

00:33:59.490 –> 00:34:11.640 Kevin Lee: One thing I like to advise newer startups is that getting your domain to rank is probably going to be pretty tough, especially if you’re in a competitive category that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t invest in seo.

00:34:12.180 –> 00:34:16.890 Kevin Lee: But your seo strategy is probably going to be more about controlling the rest of the serp.

00:34:17.520 –> 00:34:24.000 Kevin Lee: than it is going to be about simply your own domain name what I mean by that is every time you get any kind of a PR hit.

00:34:24.510 –> 00:34:29.670 Kevin Lee: or even sometimes branded content, where you paid for it and it’s labeled as advertising.

00:34:30.120 –> 00:34:43.080 Kevin Lee: That may still rank and that’s one click away from you right So if you can’t get your own domain to rank sometimes you can get your brand of positive mentioned in a location where they’ve got 100 times the ranking power that you do.

00:34:43.620 –> 00:34:52.500 Kevin Lee: And you can do that within 48 hours in some cases right if you get coverage in a particular broadcast venue or a particular print venue so.

00:34:53.100 –> 00:34:58.110 Kevin Lee: You really need to think about how earned media relates to owning the serp.

00:34:58.620 –> 00:35:08.910 Kevin Lee: Not just having a rank right a lot of seo folks are really just about okay I got my domain I got I got my SEM rush I got my hrs I got my all my tools.

00:35:09.150 –> 00:35:14.190 Kevin Lee: i’m just going to monitor my position from my my wish list of keywords okay well that’s great.

00:35:14.550 –> 00:35:24.900 Kevin Lee: But the reality is not only do you compete with publishers, from the perspective of ranking for certain things right, so the publishers are your competitors in certain ways, but they’re also your.

00:35:25.290 –> 00:35:33.030 Kevin Lee: allies, because you may be able to get content, which is sympathetic to your brand to rank in those same publishers right because they’ve got.

00:35:33.390 –> 00:35:49.410 Kevin Lee: Their looked upon favorably by the bing algorithm or the Google algorithm so that holistic view, I think, is is much more effective from an earned media investment perspective than a narrow focused siloed seo view and I don’t know if you agree with me on that or not.

00:35:49.980 –> 00:35:57.870 Joseph McElroy: No, no, I you know I we we we talk about you know content hub and it’s not just a topical hub like a lot of people think.

00:35:58.320 –> 00:36:01.680 Joseph McElroy: it’s a content hub that encompasses not just your site, but the whole.

00:36:02.160 –> 00:36:13.530 Joseph McElroy: everything related to that topic that is it important to you outside and how, how can you can have co creators influencers and publications everything to be part of your your.

00:36:14.070 –> 00:36:26.280 Joseph McElroy: ecosystem for that particular topic so you know it’s it’s important to think holistically about that, because all that contributes to your your traffic whether it’s to your site or.

00:36:26.640 –> 00:36:33.960 Joseph McElroy: to your telephone call or to your subscription or whether whatever they are able to just your brand awareness right yeah.

00:36:35.010 –> 00:36:37.770 Joseph McElroy: No, I agree with that 100 it’s much more of a.

00:36:38.850 –> 00:36:40.140 Joseph McElroy: holistic enterprise.

00:36:40.290 –> 00:36:41.040 Joseph McElroy: yeah that being.

00:36:41.160 –> 00:36:41.730 said.

00:36:43.380 –> 00:36:48.630 Joseph McElroy: Do you think that the seo process itself is being undervalued by marketing departments.

00:36:49.830 –> 00:37:00.360 Kevin Lee: Oh yeah and usually comes back to bite them in the ass after under investment of several years it’s not unusual for a major brand to sort of have a wake up call.

00:37:00.960 –> 00:37:17.730 Kevin Lee: Where they get either disinter mediated by a publisher or competitor comes on the market invests heavily and you know they have this weird it happens with big brands, in particular, like we deserve to rank because we’re big old and the best right.

00:37:17.970 –> 00:37:26.430 Kevin Lee: Well, they may be big and they may be old as to whether they’re the best or not okay well the Google algorithm is going to decide whether they are worthy of ranking.

00:37:27.030 –> 00:37:36.960 Kevin Lee: And if a competitor is is investing two three x what you’re investing in seo and you’re not matching it, they will catch up and they will pass you.

00:37:37.290 –> 00:37:43.050 Kevin Lee: And you won’t notice that they passed you until they’re a mile ahead of you in the marathon.

00:37:43.410 –> 00:37:51.630 Kevin Lee: So if somebody passes you and you don’t notice they passed you till they pat till they’re mile ahead of you in the New York marathon you’re gonna have to run really fast to catch up.

00:37:52.080 –> 00:38:08.850 Kevin Lee: And that’s where it really hits the CFO you know radar is because, when the seo team says well we’ve under invested in seo for seven years and it’s going to require you know, a million plus investment for us to catch up, can we have a million dollars.

00:38:10.350 –> 00:38:13.590 Kevin Lee: Usually, that is a tough sell but.

00:38:14.640 –> 00:38:26.640 Kevin Lee: You know so so trying to figure out how to then catch up in such a way or invest the Max that the CFO or CMO will allocate right and still managed to catch up against this fast moving competitor.

00:38:27.210 –> 00:38:41.340 Kevin Lee: At that’s key right, so you need a really strategic seo firm or seo from that also understands PR and social media and all those things to help you take whatever budget, you have, regardless of whether it’s enough or not and do the most you can with it.

00:38:41.910 –> 00:38:45.450 Joseph McElroy: yeah you know I see so many companies, especially in.

00:38:46.590 –> 00:38:54.300 Joseph McElroy: store chains right that just have not invested in say they have multiple locations all over the place, and they put up a little store locator.

00:38:54.660 –> 00:39:11.490 Joseph McElroy: increase or you get a little little address and that’s it and that’s just like throwing away the the local search, which is like 78 70% of search and people 90% of people have by intent when they do it whatever those numbers are and they’re just throwing that away and.

00:39:12.750 –> 00:39:22.680 Joseph McElroy: I looked at started with Pablo which went out of businesses, you know got bankruptcy a couple years ago and they do local classes local this local listen they did nothing for their local.

00:39:23.640 –> 00:39:30.930 Joseph McElroy: tables in everybody’s when you search for stuff like a local cooking class they were nowhere there i’m saying this is real trouble for them and Lo and behold.

00:39:31.170 –> 00:39:43.500 Joseph McElroy: You know the they couldn’t get the business up, and you know local is big right now, so you know it’s totally under valued the whole seo expert on that and and sometimes it gets me very upset.

00:39:44.970 –> 00:39:45.540 Kevin Lee: Clearly.

00:39:45.720 –> 00:39:53.850 Kevin Lee: But we’re both both very passionate about seo and our media and content, in particular, and you know when when we see it under invested.

00:39:55.350 –> 00:40:06.840 Kevin Lee: You know, getting that you know finding a way to convince the the holders of the money system apart with that money to invest it requires sometimes some pretty innovative strategies right because.

00:40:08.220 –> 00:40:16.470 Kevin Lee: they’re like yeah but I why don’t I just put more money into adwords well, maybe I should make money should go with adwords we should have another separate budget that goes into seo.

00:40:17.550 –> 00:40:27.990 Kevin Lee: Because the longer you under invest the more trouble you’re in now, you may think i’m not going to have this job by the time it hits the fan, but you know that’s really not a good good brand steward.

00:40:28.230 –> 00:40:32.880 Kevin Lee: Right basically say it’s not going to be my problem in three years, you should try to think three years out.

00:40:33.180 –> 00:40:36.300 Joseph McElroy: yeah and you might be the CEO and then you gotta get your.

00:40:36.360 –> 00:40:36.990 Joseph McElroy: Exactly.

00:40:37.410 –> 00:40:38.700 Joseph McElroy: Your bottom line today.

00:40:40.500 –> 00:40:41.100 Kevin Lee: Sadly.

00:40:41.250 –> 00:40:54.120 Joseph McElroy: yeah oh so um so how, in your experience how should a company approach that Sir, which are some of our listeners have been search engine results page all right.

00:40:56.010 –> 00:41:05.370 Kevin Lee: yeah, as I mentioned earlier, like it, that the holistic view of approaching the serp is key right and and and, in particular understanding this this idea that.

00:41:05.940 –> 00:41:17.040 Kevin Lee: Sometimes, Google will impute local intent, even if it’s not stated right and sometimes Google will impute the fact that perhaps news results belong here, even though it’s not stated.

00:41:17.430 –> 00:41:31.950 Kevin Lee: or social media results, even though it’s not stated so you know you can’t look at it to myopically after say basically well well sometimes video right that there’s another key one, the second largest search engine in the world is YouTube right.

00:41:32.100 –> 00:41:32.580 Kevin Lee: So.

00:41:32.760 –> 00:41:49.140 Kevin Lee: If you don’t have a video seo strategy you just ignore the second largest search engine in the world, so you need to really think about that that Google search and the way it’s dynamic right because they may integrate product, the news social video.

00:41:50.970 –> 00:41:54.510 Kevin Lee: into into their into a search where that was just an imputed.

00:41:56.070 –> 00:42:07.800 Kevin Lee: Step by Google you didn’t say near me right, but you said exterminator right well I don’t really want to have a exterminators this thing from La jolla California that’s not useful to me right, so of course.

00:42:08.070 –> 00:42:17.040 Kevin Lee: The the local intent is imputed so Google will have absolutely show it so if you’re not as a marketer thinking about that and thinking about.

00:42:17.280 –> 00:42:31.080 Kevin Lee: Well, wait a minute, maybe my video on how to use borax or whatever to get rid of something right maybe that should rank in video right and maybe there’s something that’s newsworthy so you really have.

00:42:31.710 –> 00:42:46.710 Kevin Lee: I can’t even keep coming back to this holistic view right this holistic view of the serp this holistic view of content creation and doing journalistic style content doing video style content doing infographics doing storytelling it all belongs in the mix.

00:42:46.920 –> 00:42:53.460 Joseph McElroy: yeah I agree, I mean I just recently had a construction client do a big construction, you know we went in thinking it was one type of content.

00:42:53.880 –> 00:43:12.450 Joseph McElroy: And then we found out that share voice 60% of it went to video all right and very few people looked at the content, it was all video content so anyway we’ll come back talk a little bit more about what you’re doing and and then we’ll be closing up alright sounds good.

00:43:19.800 –> 00:43:20.940 educate and.

00:45:31.350 –> 00:45:43.530 Joseph McElroy: Joseph Franklin mcilroy back with wise content creates well podcast my guest Kevin we so Kevin a quick question is schema going to be big and.

00:45:46.560 –> 00:45:52.350 Kevin Lee: I guess every year is the year of mobile and every year is the Year schema you know i’m not sure that.

00:45:53.970 –> 00:46:08.070 Kevin Lee: schema schema forces you to think in a certain way that I think is useful right, whether or not it ends up being a dynamic ranking factor to be a tiebreaker right so much of seo these days is tie breaking right so whether or not.

00:46:08.610 –> 00:46:17.580 Kevin Lee: schema versus no schema will be a tiebreaker in the case where you’ve got great content and you’ve got great inbound links and everything else is equal will schema be the tiebreaker.

00:46:18.060 –> 00:46:27.720 Kevin Lee: i’m not sure right, you know, especially as rank brain starts to kick in at Google and some of the more sophisticated Ai based algorithms i’m not sure that schema will necessarily be.

00:46:28.170 –> 00:46:38.310 Kevin Lee: The tiebreaker, but I think it it helps inform Google and bing, for that matter right about sort of your content and where your content fits into the broader ecosystem.

00:46:38.970 –> 00:46:48.840 Kevin Lee: I think they were smart and not giving it too much weight, because you and I go far back far enough, where Meta keywords were abused right.

00:46:49.020 –> 00:47:03.540 Kevin Lee: So Google cannot allow schema to be abused, but that doesn’t mean that completely ignore it right, and so they have to find his engineers, this balance between not ignoring it because it’s useful.

00:47:04.020 –> 00:47:13.950 Kevin Lee: right but not allowing it to be a way of manipulating things the way that the Meta keywords and Meta titles were in the past, but in particular Meta keywords so.

00:47:14.580 –> 00:47:19.740 Kevin Lee: I think they they I think it’s worth going through the mental exercise.

00:47:20.310 –> 00:47:29.880 Kevin Lee: Of of adding schema to your site is schema should be there right whether it’s local schema or what any one of the schemas right it’s worth going through the mental exercise good because it helps you.

00:47:30.180 –> 00:47:38.400 Kevin Lee: categorize your content, it helps you categorize your business and it informs your content creation strategy so.

00:47:39.180 –> 00:47:48.990 Kevin Lee: I don’t think it’s going to be the year of schema for ranking strategy perspective, but I think it adds a framework to your content planning strategy at least that’s how we think of it.

00:47:49.380 –> 00:47:56.910 Joseph McElroy: yeah I you know I think you’re exactly right on the ranking I do think it can be useful in format in your your search result.

00:47:57.390 –> 00:48:08.970 Joseph McElroy: Especially things like the faq steam, and I don’t know how long they allow you but, but each the answers you can put a link into something else, so you can actually do it holds direct response campaign and faq.

00:48:09.360 –> 00:48:09.750 Right.

00:48:10.950 –> 00:48:28.140 Joseph McElroy: Now I don’t I don’t see a lot of people taking advantage of that yet, but so let’s move on to you, I also you throughout your career you’ve also had a real concerned or social social causes right.

00:48:29.700 –> 00:48:39.630 Joseph McElroy: And there’s of course there’s an interesting story that you were involved with at the end of it i’d love for you to tell a little bit of the story of Walker and then how you got involved with that gawker story.

00:48:41.220 –> 00:48:47.430 Kevin Lee: yeah I mean I cause marketing is my favorite form of philanthropy because you’re basically taking marketing dollars.

00:48:47.730 –> 00:48:53.220 Kevin Lee: Either people’s behavior or attention and you’re turning them into money turning that into money for nonprofits.

00:48:53.670 –> 00:49:00.870 Kevin Lee: And so you know before I even had this crazy idea to buy gawker i’d started, we care, which was cause marketing powered commerce.

00:49:01.230 –> 00:49:06.120 Kevin Lee: And after six and a half years Amazon our biggest partner decided to have us do an A, B split test.

00:49:06.480 –> 00:49:11.880 Kevin Lee: We proved lifting conversion rate lifting shopping cart size, they terminated our agreement, and they launched smile.

00:49:12.240 –> 00:49:23.670 Kevin Lee: So you know we plateaued at 8.3 million donated to causes with a week here and then amazon’s now, what about 140 million donated with with smile, and I take calmer credit for that.

00:49:26.010 –> 00:49:36.630 Kevin Lee: But after that I got obsessed with this idea of content right and you and I both love content, but it was the idea of cause marketing power content like, if I can get my content donated for free.

00:49:37.050 –> 00:49:47.760 Kevin Lee: Instead of having to pay an author to do, and it was great content, then I could probably afford to give half of the ad revenue to nonprofits so I built a platform where we would let the reader pick.

00:49:48.360 –> 00:49:59.190 Kevin Lee: And let the content creator pick a cause, we would measure it like Google analytics basically and we would then at the end of the month, be able to distribute ad revenue, the problem was, I had no ad revenue, because I had no domains.

00:49:59.730 –> 00:50:10.170 Kevin Lee: So I started looking for stuff to buy and I was the only bitter on gotham missed and all the other is Chicago West la is that surfaced and DNA info when Joe ricketts shut that down.

00:50:10.590 –> 00:50:17.070 Kevin Lee: And then the last minute w nyc bought it with a million bucks from an anonymous philanthropists I think it was Bloomberg.

00:50:17.520 –> 00:50:27.120 Kevin Lee: And so I started looking for something else to buy it wasn’t worth a million to me, so I found out about the gawker bankruptcy, it was two years after they sold everything else to univision.

00:50:28.050 –> 00:50:40.050 Kevin Lee: And I said, you know gawkers got amazing us yeah I think was 12.6 million inbound links right and to the extent that those would still remain valid, that would be a great running start for a content play.

00:50:40.560 –> 00:50:49.200 Kevin Lee: And if I could get Hollywood celebrities to participate and donate content and to conquer that’d be cool so I tried to buy gawker turn into gawker for good.

00:50:50.010 –> 00:50:56.070 Kevin Lee: I was the high bidder for six months, and then, when Peter thiel agreed not to litigate the buyer.

00:50:56.760 –> 00:51:03.300 Kevin Lee: They ran a second auction because they want to run a second auction, because if you don’t feel scared everybody away with an announcement, he was going to.

00:51:03.720 –> 00:51:09.990 Kevin Lee: Sue whoever bought it out of existence, I didn’t care about the archives as much as I would have taken them down if that would become an issue but.

00:51:10.260 –> 00:51:23.640 Kevin Lee: Other buyers potentially really wanted the archives, so I didn’t get darker I didn’t get gotham missed I tried to buy lenny letter from Lena dunham and Jenny Connor I tried to buy rookie mag from Tommy Johnson couldn’t get any of those deals done.

00:51:24.420 –> 00:51:35.280 Kevin Lee: And so I started giving forward and nonprofit and we’re launching good buzz.org now the inspiration for that is basically john Kaczynski if you’ve seen his some good news show.

00:51:35.430 –> 00:51:36.930 Joseph McElroy: that’s a good that’s a good yeah.

00:51:36.990 –> 00:51:44.520 Kevin Lee: I mean you know I said, if I can create like 50 john krasinski is talking about fun stuff and doing interviews with each other.

00:51:45.090 –> 00:51:51.120 Kevin Lee: That would be a lot of fun and then we could let them pick nonprofits each of the stars could pick a nonprofit and we would take.

00:51:51.420 –> 00:52:01.350 Kevin Lee: 25% of the ad revenue go there 25% would go to the viewers choice in the case of video so that’s been built and it’s up get ready to launch on good buzz.org.

00:52:02.250 –> 00:52:10.680 Kevin Lee: We did a partnership with the Miss America organization where we’ll have both miss American miss teen America interviewing celebs starting next week actually.

00:52:11.610 –> 00:52:17.880 Kevin Lee: And so, if anyone has celebrities they want to get them interviewed or they want to get their celebrities up on good buzz.

00:52:18.240 –> 00:52:26.970 Kevin Lee: We want to reach that point where where where the publicists are saying okay we’re doing this on Twitter this on Facebook this on instagram this on tech Doc and we’re donating this.

00:52:27.300 –> 00:52:37.350 Kevin Lee: To good buzz if we can reach that point where it becomes a hub for a lot of great content generated by sports music and Hollywood celebs as well as influencers.

00:52:37.800 –> 00:52:40.980 Kevin Lee: We can get pretty big and i’d love that money to go to causes.

00:52:41.820 –> 00:52:53.610 Kevin Lee: It would just make such a huge difference, as you know that the digital the digital pot of money 350 billion dollars, going to be this year right deanna 15 billion is a big number it’s a be.

00:52:54.570 –> 00:52:59.700 Kevin Lee: instagram is going to do at least 30 billion by itself, I don’t think we’re going to get the instagram size.

00:53:00.030 –> 00:53:15.840 Kevin Lee: But we could make it, you know we could make a small dent if we get big and you know start distributing millions of dollars to nonprofits so i’m pretty passionate about that it’s a hobby of mine, I hired a general manager to run it recently so we’ll see where it goes good buzz.org.

00:53:16.590 –> 00:53:22.380 Joseph McElroy: Good much better I would what would people be able to do, besides giving you content, the other way people can help you.

00:53:23.250 –> 00:53:37.890 Kevin Lee: I mean i’ve got all sorts of stuff I have the volunteers working on, you know we’ve also got an events division for that where we allow allow the buyers of the tickets to basically choose a non profit when they buy the ticket so again it democratizes where the money goes.

00:53:39.390 –> 00:53:47.820 Kevin Lee: we’ve got volunteers helping us with research with with content co creation with with marketing with social media.

00:53:49.140 –> 00:53:50.280 Kevin Lee: could always use some extra.

00:53:50.310 –> 00:53:55.470 Joseph McElroy: Extra eyeballs extra be a really great way for a young person to learn a lot about content.

00:53:56.760 –> 00:54:08.310 Kevin Lee: I think you know if everything you know anything marketing related right I got I got I got a bunch my ad my adwords ad grant right because I haven’t got a chance to do that yet so we’ve got we’ve got.

00:54:09.120 –> 00:54:23.940 Kevin Lee: People who could get their hands dirty and a whole bunch of different categories from you know journalism PR you know biz Dev once we get big will start selling branded content nonprofit liaison we’re going to be working really tightly with nonprofits.

00:54:25.200 –> 00:54:34.650 Kevin Lee: A Hollywood liaison right working with publicists and and brands so i’m pretty optimistic about it obviously pretty passionate about it.

00:54:35.340 –> 00:54:48.420 Kevin Lee: Did it pays the bills and it’s still growing we’re doing great i’ve got an amazing team still takes the first 4845 hours of my week and then giving forward and good buzz take the rest my family gets a little bit of time to say.

00:54:48.600 –> 00:54:56.100 Joseph McElroy: Well, thank you very much, thank you very much for being a guest on the show I think everybody knows.com and get Ahold of you right.

00:54:56.790 –> 00:55:02.250 Kevin Lee: or linkedin find my linkedin profile i’m happy to chat via linkedin pretty easy to find cool.

00:55:02.550 –> 00:55:11.250 Joseph McElroy: And then you can find me and just send me an email JESSICA Galileo tech media COM, as I mentioned for gallery technique is a specializes in wise content.

00:55:11.700 –> 00:55:24.090 Joseph McElroy: For seo social media podcast and different kinds of campaigns and you might want to be involved with we did 40,000 pieces of content marissa at 1.2 thousand 19 so.

00:55:24.450 –> 00:55:30.840 Joseph McElroy: we’re in this we’re in this to win it and you can this this wise content creates well.

00:55:31.800 –> 00:55:47.400 Joseph McElroy: As part of the talk radio dot nyc network there’s some pretty good other shows on here, please check it out and I I i’m building a site, called the wise content creates wealth COM where you’ll be able to find information about the show.

00:55:48.540 –> 00:56:06.510 Joseph McElroy: Right now, you have facebook.com slash wise wealth creates content to find copies of the previous podcasts and any kind of intervention things that we’re putting on so it’s been nice talking to you all and see you next week or if keep Rentals talking about the publishing.

00:56:08.400 –> 00:56:09.090 Kevin Lee: Thank you so much.